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October 15, 2019, 05:50:46 am


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Author Topic: More of Chuckeroo's insanity  (Read 365 times)
chuckeroo
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« on: October 11, 2019, 01:46:58 am »

OK a vacuum pump made for a buick supercharger. No not my original idea i'm ripping off someone else's concept. A Buick supercharger because it is self lubricated if i'm not mistaken, nice! a 110 motor hooked up spinning at the right speed, whatever that is. And adapters to go from the supercharger to  valves and finally to the bed. Any one with previous experience please chime in and any suggestions are very welcome. How am i going to keep the wood chips out of the blower vanes ? A filter of some kind perhaps? The fellow out of Southern California that posted this idea also posted vacuum numbers and if i'm not mistaken they were impressive. Talk about on the cheap right. Under a hundred bucks for the supercharger. Pick a part special. Think i'll go get one this weekend.
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 01:59:46 am »

OK a vacuum pump made for a buick supercharger. No not my original idea i'm ripping off someone else's concept. A Buick supercharger because it is self lubricated if i'm not mistaken, nice! a 110 motor hooked up spinning at the right speed, whatever that is. And adapters to go from the supercharger to  valves and finally to the bed. Any one with previous experience please chime in and any suggestions are very welcome. How am i going to keep the wood chips out of the blower vanes ? A filter of some kind perhaps? The fellow out of Southern California that posted this idea also posted vacuum numbers and if i'm not mistaken they were impressive. Talk about on the cheap right. Under a hundred bucks for the supercharger. Pick a part special. Think i'll go get one this weekend.

Well... stock cars turn up to a little over 9000 RPM if they are properly balanced.  I imagine a dragster with a super charger might be atleast in the same range.  Find a few picture and compare the size of the super charger pulley with the size of the engine pulley/balancer.  Or.... look up the manufacturer's website and see what they say. 
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dh42
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 02:11:29 am »

Hello

Quote
How am i going to keep the wood chips out of the blower vanes ? A filter of some kind perhaps?

On my vacuum pump, the filter is done with a grid tube and a foam ... maybe a filter for bike can do the trick ?

++
David


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« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:18:38 am by dh42 » Logged
chuckeroo
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 18:40:21 pm »

Thanks for the input guy's, 9,000 rpm whoa doggie i don't think this will be neccessary. But it sounds good though. Talk about flying parts!!!
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chuckeroo
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 22:55:58 pm »

WHOA just hit 9,000 rpm and this thing is sucking like a whore on bourbon street.
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lloydsp
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 23:31:35 pm »

Well... I've spent a bit of time cruising Bourbon Street, but never got sucked! <grin>

('Had some GREAT seafood at Felix's on Iberville St. [which butts up to Bourbon St], though!!!)

Lloyd
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 23:39:08 pm by lloydsp » Logged

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dave benson
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 23:50:43 pm »

HI Chuck
Before you get too carried away,  go here https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/supercharger-power-requirement.395212/page-2 to the second page, and at the last post it gives you the required HP to drive one of these superchargers.
It'll cost you an arm and a leg to run  electricity wise.

What about one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ryW5Fm_Sc
There are plenty of DIY builds on youtube. Cheap and easy to build and a lot cheaper to run comparatively.

Dave
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Garyhlucas
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2019, 00:30:18 am »

Hello

Quote
How am i going to keep the wood chips out of the blower vanes ? A filter of some kind perhaps?

On my vacuum pump, the filter is done with a grid tube and a foam ... maybe a filter for bike can do the trick ?

++
David

David, that isn’t a filter it’s a silencer only. I have installed maybe 50 of those.  The style you have is fairly tolerant of small chips. A Gast type would have siezed on you already.  However you really should have an intake filter, the bigger the better.
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2019, 00:46:29 am »

Chuck,
A super charger is positive displacement lobe blower and is very efficient compared the regenerative blower David has. I’ve installed maybe 30 of these. They are mostly belt driven so they can match the air requirements. So you can run it slower and use much less hp. There is a caveat depending on how it is lubricated as there is a timing gear set on one end. If it has splash lube they typically can’t go below 30% of base speed without problems. Blowers that need to run slow often have lube pumps. So your idea could work very well.  Also the power requirements can be much less when used for vacuum not pressure.
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dh42
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 03:16:18 am »

Re

Quote
David, that isn’t a filter it’s a silencer only.

Ah OK.

So I have (I had) no filter ... except the small holes of the vacuum table itself ...

++
David
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dave benson
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 08:58:20 am »

HI Chuck
I tried to find a video of someone else doing this, to see what their impressions were or if they did any tests, but came up empty handed, I did however find this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuXnEIj3g5s where the guy puts his hand over the outlet and inlet ports when it was running at 3000 rpm. Buick V6 M90
Over the outlet he could stall the motor, over the inlet he separated his fingers and it did produce some
suck,but as you can see not a lot really compared to the noise it made.

Many years ago I serviced Hydra-vane and Champion rotary screw compressors, Factory duty mainly
some mobile Hydra-Vanes for Jack Hammer Duty, Ford 6 cyl diesel powered. Here is a link to their website https://www.championairtech.com/en/products/screw-compressors/ka-ka-plus-series
for the smallest screw compressor they make 2.2kw (3HP) @ 10 bar they rate 0.24 cubic metres.
That's a state of the art machine specificity designed for the job, and that's not a lot of performance
So I think using a second hand one out of a car from a car wreckers may be a problem without a good going over.

Second the noise is horrendous. even with a filtering system it might need to be ran outside of the shop. Even then the neighbours might run you out of town.

Third the filtering would have to be excellent and maintained often. Religiously
At the speeds I saw the guy in the video run it at 3000 rpm, you would have to force lube the bearings  to keep them cool if running it for a while.

Can you do this, well  yeah sure you can do anything especially if your a Gear Head this might garner you some cachet with the brethren or at least put a wry smile on their faces, but will it be as efficient as a Politician at turning 'Dollars into Vacuum', I'm not so sure....I think for you in the home shop, with one router  this would be marginal value proposition at best. Might be fun though.

In any case if you start a built then post some pic's here it would be interesting to see how you go.

Dave
Edit:
https://www.pneumatictips.com/whats-efficient-reciprocating-compressor-screw-air-compressors/
Just found this and it Tally’s with my recollections about maintaining these beasties.
From Here:
To compare the two types of compressors, the math works like this:
For a 10 cfm load, a 100 cfm 25 hp (21.3 kW at full load) screw compressor consumes 21.3 kW for 10% of the time (2.1 kW) and 7.4 kW for 90% of the time (6.7 kW). This means the total average power consumption is 8.8 kW to produce 10 cfm, a specific power of 88 kW per 100 cfm.

A similar sized 25 hp reciprocating compressor that, say, can produce only 90 cfm at 21 kW, runs 11% of the time to feed the same load (2.3 kW) but consumes no power when it is not producing air. This works to a total average power of 2.3 kW or a specific power of 23 kW per 100 cfm—almost 4 times more energy efficient!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 09:33:47 am by dave benson » Logged
Garyhlucas
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 18:57:04 pm »

Dave,
Your math is faulty. Screw compressors are replacing reciprocating compressors for two reasons, higher efficiency and way longer life. Lobe blowers aka superchargers are a good choice and efficient for lower pressures typically 15 psi and high volumes. The best lobe blowers have 3 lobes that helical which greatly reduces pulsation and noise. I am not sure what is in a car supercharger.
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chuckeroo
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 22:14:58 pm »

Time to do some research .Realistically speaking it's a small area i would like to use this with. About 14x40 not really that big. Saw a video on you tube the guy goes by CNCNUTZ and he has a full desription from beginning to end on how he put his together.Don"t have a link at this second but this will get you there. SO the question is in the real world how much vacuum level needs to be maintained before the wood goes a flyin, and yes i know there is a number for perfect vacuum and that's not what i'm trying to attain here, just hold it in place and i realize that this comes down to a guess. Maybe a percentage of loss versuses usable levels in the startup of the pump with no loss at that point in time. The prior info i picked up on the guy was using a 110 motor how many horsepower don't know and i wish i did. Thanks for the food for thought!!! Keep it coming.
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lloydsp
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 23:02:26 pm »

Chuck,
I have a (nominal) 4x8 foot bed router. I have to maintain about 10" Hg per square-inch of vacuum in addition to edge clamping, in order to keep work from moving about.  And it still does, rarely, to the ruin of the job.

To accomplish that, I have a 20 HP 240V-3 phase regenerative vacuum blower.  It consumes a great deal of power.

Lloyd
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2019, 14:42:45 pm »

Garry
Thankfully the Math is not mine and  is ok, what's implicit in the math and not stated very clearly in the article is that  a typical installation for rotary vane compressors is for Uber air regulation to supply and protect capital plant, and  in  this configuration all pumps running and bypassing  to provide the quickest response time and are plumbed in directly to the machine, no receiver which would act like a big spring. So with the pumps continuously on and bypassing just waiting to respond to an event it's just a costly but necessary process.

I think what your getting at is you install 3ph rotary vane compressors connected to a receiver just like a piston powered one with the ability to turn on and of thus saving money as compared to a blower or piston powered pump. I don't know never looked into it.

Chuck as to the motor size, if you are happy with CNCNuts tables holding power with the newspaper trick it seemed to hold pretty well, he mentioned that he was using a Festool vacuum designed for the task as the motor cooling was done by a separate fan not the airflow from the incoming air so I had a look at the catalogue and selected one almost the same his must be older anyway the power quoted was 2kw, that's a little under 3 HP.

First thing to check  once you get the unit and the motor is how hot the bearings  are running, I use a non contact IR thermo to check my spindles and if you have one $30 it's easy to check.

After that sort out the filter, remember as you are using it to pull a vacuum anything not filtered out goes through the blades, maybe one of those cyclone filters and then a free flowing filter of some kind, and a free flowing exhaust system that cuts the noise down.

Dave
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