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Author Topic: High Speed ATC Spindles  (Read 1899 times)
dh42
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« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2019, 03:12:40 am »

Ok, it works like a double acting pneumatic/hydraulic cylinder.

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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2019, 03:32:05 am »

Yep.  I'm sure its a double acting pneumatic cylinder.  Don't know why I struggled with this.  I have virtually the same setup on top of the spindle on my Tormach mill.  

The valve by the way that I need is called a 2 position 5 port changeover valve.  And I have one.  

I also have some simple one way solenoid valves on the shelf for the other stuff.  What I don't have is three spare regulators for the three different air pressures it requires.  72-87 PSI for the tool changer, 29-36 PSI for the air seal, and 43-58PSI for the dust removal blast.  
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 03:36:17 am by Bob La Londe » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2019, 11:13:20 am »

Does this spindle fit into the head casting of the mill, or are you going to fabricate a replacement mount?
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2019, 12:04:43 pm »

Bob, that makes complete sense.  In this case "return air" means "return of the cylinder", not return of air.

Yes, what you're describing is usually called a 3-way valve.  But remember there are 2-position 3-way valves, and also 3-position (center-off) types.  There are even two and three-way 'stable' valves that will stay in whatever position they're sent to by a momentary actuation pulse.

I'd believe yours needs to be 3-way, 2-position, using constant actuation air signals.

Lloyd
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Bob La Londe
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2019, 15:25:54 pm »

Does this spindle fit into the head casting of the mill, or are you going to fabricate a replacement mount?

Should be an exact fit in this case.  The head was manufactured for and has an 80mm 24K spindle in it.  I've replaced the spindle before.  This spindle is also 80mm.  I have two other mills with similar heads.  One is exactly the same, but the third has a 62mm spindle.  When I had to replace that one it took a while to find a replacement.  I've seen a 61.95mm ATC spindle before that I could use in that one, but lately I have not been able to find it.  

Well, not quite an exact fit.  I either need to leave the top cover off the head or cut a hole in it as this spindle is quite a lot longer.  I may make a "tall" top cover for the head eventually.  
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 16:45:00 pm by Bob La Londe » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2019, 20:15:43 pm »


Part 2

https://youtu.be/MUFz-p48FpA
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dh42
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2019, 01:35:04 am »

Hello

An interesting video about an ATC on a (big) BZT and dust shoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycIlpIX0kKM

This add some complications for woodworking because in addition you need to manage the dust shoes.

Bob, for metal working, how do you handle the cooling tube orientation to match with the tool length/size ? (if I well understand, you already have an ATC on another machine ?)

edit: what is the blue box on your video (I don't understand spoken English  Embarrassed)

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« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 01:46:23 am by dh42 » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2019, 14:05:38 pm »

Hello

An interesting video about an ATC on a (big) BZT and dust shoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycIlpIX0kKM

This add some complications for woodworking because in addition you need to manage the dust shoes.

Bob, for metal working, how do you handle the cooling tube orientation to match with the tool length/size ? (if I well understand, you already have an ATC on another machine ?)

I had an ATC on a machine, but I was not happy with it.  I now have an ATC resting on the floor.  I run two locline nozzles for coolant, and if necessary I adjust them.  When I was running the ATC I would adjust for "most tools" so that the spray hit high on longer tools and just short on shorter tools. 
Quote

edit: what is the blue box on your video (I don't understand spoken English  Embarrassed)

DIN rail mounted 12VDC power supply.  I picked up several of them at auction for a few dollars each some years ago.  Its a neat power supply.  100-240V AC input.  12VDC regulated 5 amps output. 
Quote

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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2019, 17:54:42 pm »

P.S.  I was going to edit in more subtitles, but to be honest it will all be covered in further videos in the series anyway.  I'm trying to keep them all short. 
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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2019, 16:38:37 pm »

The deeper I get the more I want a tool changer, but I have concluded that my ER20 spindle is dialed.
Yes that's a hair, 0.0118 (0.3mm) smallest drills I have.
Austin


* 54257248_2907633099254419_1575228188370403328_o.jpg (425.18 KB, 2048x1152 - viewed 26 times.)
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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2019, 17:13:57 pm »

I probably won't install a full on tool changer.  It would certainly be good for production, but there just isn't room on these machines.  Fast change and repeatable tool height still helps with production rate.  It helps a lot.  I can't just go to the store wile it runs, but instead of several minutes on each tool change I can swap tools in a few seconds and press start.  I think it will also dramatically reduce my likelihood of making mistakes when I am thinking about various other things. 

The other reason I probably won't install a full tool changer is that to be really useful I need around 20 preloaded tools.  Prefab tool changers dtend to 8 or 10 tools.  I just don't have the time or the knowledge at this time to build my own.  I'm thinking when I get a little further on the hybrid bridge mill build I may create a chain type tool changer that circles the machine on three sides.  I still have to think about that though.  I'm actually working on another (paid) project that might help with learning how to do that. 


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Garyhlucas
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2019, 22:18:31 pm »

Bob,
I think you run Mach 3 on a machine or 2.  I am having trouble with tool length compensation and tool changing.  I understand tool length compensation I've used it a lot in the past on other machines.  So I think I have it wrong in my Mach 3 post or in the Mach 3 M6 macros.  The code posted by CamBam looks like this:

G20 G90 G91.1 G64 G40 G49
( T1 : 0.07 )
T1 M6
G43 H1
G0 Z0.125
( Drill1 )
G17
M3 S1000

M6Start macro looks like this:
 
tool = GetSelectedTool()
  SetCurrentTool( tool )

M6End macro looks like this:

REM The default script here moves the tool back to m6start if any movement has occurred during the tool change..

x = GetToolChangeStart( 0 )
y = GetToolChangeStart( 1 )
z = GetToolChangeStart( 2 )
a = GetToolChangeStart( 3 )
b = GetToolChangeStart( 4 )
c = GetToolChangeStart( 5 )
if(IsSafeZ() = 1) Then
   SafeZ = GetSafeZ()
   if  SafeZ  > z then StraightTraverse x, y,SafeZ, a, b, c
      StraightFeed  x, y,  z  , a, b, c
else
Code"G00 X" & x & "Y" & y
end if

Mach 3 is set to do tool changes, and has a tool change height of 5 inches in Settings.  During code execution it stops the spindle but does not raise it 5 inches. The tool number changes and tool change indicator flashes.  I change the tool and press start and it does a very slow move like it is applying the tool offset.  However I just watched it do this, saw the Z DRO jump to the correct height above the part, then watched it push a drill in so far that the block of plastic extruded right up in the chuck!

Anyone have an idea of what I am doing wrong?  It seems like the M6Start macro ought to do a move to the tool change height passed to it from Mach 3 but I don't know how to code that.

Thanks,
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Bob La Londe
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« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2019, 23:12:06 pm »

You can embed specific code in your macros.  I like to use G53 so it moves to machine coordinates rather than to work offset coordinates, but you can also use G28 if you have set a G28 position.  Just be careful.  CamBam does not output both X&Y at the start of a MOP if one or both of them have not changed from end of a previous MOP.  To prevent that being a problem I store my current location in variables at the beginning of the tool change and go back to that location at the end of the tool change.  

Now here is a gotcha.  G53 and some other G-Codes use the last output F speed.  I added an F speed to my G53 lines in my macros to prevent that being an issue.  

G53 Z0 F(bignumber) should take the machine to the maximum Z height at max speed.  Well unless you are one of those weirdos who sets the bed of the machine as zero when you setup the machine.  LOL.  Just make it the first thing in your start tool change macros.  Well, maybe after coolant off, although I control coolant with my MOPs and styles.  Still a redundant spindle stop and coolant stop won't hurt. 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 23:16:29 pm by Bob La Londe » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2019, 23:21:32 pm »

When I was running mach3 I always just jogged Z myself to a convenient height.

See what happens if you move the G43 before the M6
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Bob La Londe
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« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2019, 23:38:46 pm »

G43 applies the tool length offset.  It has nothing to do with movement of the machine.  Well not directly.  It changes the Z axis offset which changes the relative position of zero for your current work offset coordinates. 

T1 (Tool 1 for M6 command)
M6 (Execute tool change macros)
G43 (Apply tool length offset)
H1 (Specifies Tool 1 for G43 command)

I often use code that looks like this. 

T1 M6 G43 H1

For reference typically one uses the unloaded spindle nose (if practical) as tool zero with a length of zero.  All other tools are a positive length.  I said if practical as the locking collar on my Kwik 200 spindle on my Hurco mill might not be uniform enough for that.  Instead I use a tool holder with a very short stick out indexing pin in it as tool zero. 

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