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Author Topic: Morbidellli /TRIA 4000 post neded  (Read 3296 times)
AsErBo
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« on: December 13, 2018, 15:46:51 pm »

Hi guys, Asle from Norway here!

I have just picked up an old machine called Morbidelli U13, and it has the ancient TRIA 4000 controller with 3.5" floppy drive, and green-monochrome 8" monitor... Good stuff! :-P

I am planning to swap the old controller for a more modern approach, but there is neither time nor money for that this winter, so I would like to be able to use the machine as-is over the winter, and thus the question arises:

Have anyone here written a post processor for the TRIA, and if so, can I please have a copy?
I can fix anything electric or mechanical on such a machine, but my programming skills are limited to setting the timer on an old BetaMax...

Any help is greatly appreciated, and if possible (and allowed on this forum) I'm more than happy to compensate time spent with dineros for cold beverages of an age-appropriate type :-)

Best regards
Asle
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Bubba
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2018, 19:14:14 pm »

You are welcome here. Stay tight..
We got couple of guys here that are pretty sharp when it comes to post editing/modifying. They probably will ask you for copy of native to this machine gcode, or some reference in programing manual, so you may want to dig some thing like this up, to help out.. Good Luck.
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lloydsp
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2018, 19:19:27 pm »

Bubba beat me to it.  We have several folks here adept at putting-together post-processors. (note carefully that I did NOT say 'programming', because there's no programming involved - usually).

A post-processor is nothing but a simple text file containing the commands the unit will accept in the format it will accept.  They are easy to learn to create.

But... to your point...  We can help.  We need a command reference for your control.  With that, a number of folks can help, and if there's any actual programming involved (like a 'post-build processor' to correct certain formats), we can help there, too!

OLD machines often have a few (today) non-standard g-code conventions that can sometimes be hard to create without a post-build processor.  I have an OLD 1980s Bridgeport R2E4.  Before I updated to a Centronics controller, it required a number of weird g-code conventions.  Those were accommodated by the post-build processor function.

Welcome to the group!  You'll find this site to be the MOST responsive to members' needs of any group you've ever had the privilege of joining!

Lloyd
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 19:22:48 pm by lloydsp » Logged

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AsErBo
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 15:16:01 pm »

Bubba, Lloyd; thank you both! :-)

I have attached a pdf section of the user manual, and has a series of programming examples of different boring and routing programmes, maybe they can serve as an explanation as to what the post should give out.

22 years ago I did a course in school where we for three hours a week wrote g-code manually, and stored them on music casettes, sadly the only thing I can remember from that time is having been there, not what we were taught....

Best regards
Asle

* Programming examples TRIA 4000.pdf (493.99 KB - downloaded 67 times.)
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lloydsp
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2018, 15:32:42 pm »

Asle,

I have downloaded that and read it.  It gives some fairly good information, but leaves some confusions, as well.

Does this machine have multiple spindles?

Further, if you got this from the users' manual, there should also be a 'real' programming codes reference section, showing all the possible commands, and (normally) explaining their purposes and giving tiny examples of use.

If so, that portion of the manual would be of much more use.

I think we could probably cobble-up something from what you've uploaded, but it wouldn't be complete, nor would it address any limitations a programming reference should describe.

Yours,
Lloyd
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AsErBo
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 16:27:43 pm »

Lloyd,
Thank you again, the manual is far to big to be uploaded here (27Mb), but should be downloadable via this link:

Programming starts on page 72

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccqzbcuspgcqfdl/Instruction%20Manual%20TRIA%204000_6000_6500.pdf?dl=0

Yessir, 1 routing spindle + 9 vertical boring spindles, 2 horizontal spindles in X and one saw spindle in X :-)

Spec sheet of machine here:
https://www.woodmercator.com/produkt/produktdateien/produkt_datei_1506409940.pdf
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lloydsp
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2018, 16:57:21 pm »

Asle,

Wonderful!  That is exactly what we need to understand the machine.

Sir, we're about to get a line of severe storms through here, lasting almost all night into the morning.  I probably won't even get to the point of studying the manual until after quitting-time here.  So, one might reasonably expect that I won't have any more questions until late morning tomorrow.

But I SHALL study the manual this evening!

Lloyd
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lloydsp
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 14:13:05 pm »

Well, my goodness!  That machine is BIG!  I looked up some pix.

Asle, that machine has one of the MOST 'perverse' instruction sets I've ever seen.

I have read through the programming section once.  It'll take several more reads to fully absorb it.  But one thing sort of 'pops out' immediately.

That is: The machine does NOT honor normal motion codes as we understand them in this age.  As an example, G0 and G1 do NOT represent slewing and controlled-speed movement.  In the Tria control, any G1 sequence MUST be preceded by a G0.  then multiple G1s may occur in succession.  But if ANY other instruction is issued except for G1, the Z moves back to the clearance plane, and 'cutting' is canceled.

I'll re-read it, and begin to ask you to try certain things manually, before beginning to write a post-processor.

Lloyd
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 15:11:02 pm by lloydsp » Logged

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EddyCurrent
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 20:25:00 pm »

It looks like this could be quite a task

This may help; https://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?t=12470
and here; http://www.cambam.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4263.msg29994#msg29994
and here; https://www.woodcnc.de/forum/forum/programmiersysteme/xilog/tria
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 20:39:42 pm by EddyCurrent » Logged

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lloydsp
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 02:33:19 am »

Thanks, Eddy.

I didn't recall that 2014 set of exchanges until you reminded me.  Now, with the full manual in my hands, I fear there might have been some defects in that strategy.  At least the way I read the manual, a G1 code followed by anything else causes a move back to clearance.  That doesn't make any sense, but it is what the manual actually says.  So... first tests are going to be to execute some G1s followed by G2/G3, and see what we can see.

Tomorrow is a 'full day', but as soon as I can, I'll put together some sample moves for Asle to try.

Lloyd
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lloydsp
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 02:51:47 am »

BTW... after reviewing some of the programming examples in chapter 7 of the manual, I'm inclined to believe that G0 possibly could be used as we normally use it, even though it was apparently not Tria's intent to use it that way. 

It also appears that G1/G2/G3 may be intermixed without cancelling back to clearance.

If so, a couple of 'cheats' could get us to where we need to be.

Lloyd
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AsErBo
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 15:59:53 pm »

I REALLY appreciate the help guys! :-)

I'll be at the workshop thursday-sunday next week, and should be able to try out any tricks you come up with!

Yes it is indeed a hefty machine, but it was dirt cheap (mostly to do with a supposedly faulty monitor), and finishing the aluminium extrusion build I have going on in my garage would probably cost me as much as this entire machine.
The price was 10 000NOK (Norwegian Crowns), roughly 1150USD.

Again; I am super thankful that you take the time to help me!! :-)

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lloydsp
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2018, 16:06:11 pm »

Ok, Asle,

In order to test some functions, you will have to create a program in the Tria 4000 via the editor (the editor on the Tria 4000, NOT CamBam).  I wish not to learn how to use the editor, so I will leave that up to you.  More on the program later.

I don't know what size chuck is associated with T1, but for all these examples, T1 shall be assumed to be the default.  We'll specify it explicitly.

Manually position the Z axis approximately half-way between it's upper limit and the table (called the 'striking surface' in the manual).  Ideally, you should have a couple-hundred mm minimum distance remaining to the table.  For testing, manually declare this height to be Z=0 for T1.  Now we have a relatively-safe height at which to work without 'crashing' the tool into the table.


Next, enter the test program via the editor.

Any test program will require to have (at a minimum):

  An "H" (header) command which sizes the table and axis dimensions
    (In order to assure the machine is in mm mode, you must include *mm as one of the header elements.)

  An IX0 ensuring that the X axis is moving 'absolute' dimensions
  An IY0  ""                     Y         ""
  An IZ0  ""                     Z         ""

     ( These last are supposed to be the defaults upon power-up, but my experience says "never trust defaults".
        So, set them explicitly.)

These preceding instructions must be a part of any program you enter, so you might as well become familiar with them! <grin>

Now... we're going to use a 'null' instruction to move the head to somewhere safe to test.  For this test, we're only going to move it a couple-hundred mm in X and Y in order to ensure that it works.

So... First test instruction:
     N X200 Y200           (this should move the head to that position relative to machine 0,0)
                                             (It should not move the Z axis up or down -- look for that!)

So far, your intent should be to just test ONE instruction per program.  When you've exercised every instruction separately, then we may combine them.

So, IF that worked, next create a new program like the old, and which includes the N instruction above.  Then, following that, add a boring code:
     B X100 Y100 Z10 V1 T1    (this should cause the spindle first to move back toward 0,0 to X100,Y100, then
                                          to plunge to 10mm below zero, then recover to 0)

IF that worked, then another program.  This one is going to 'cheat' on the manual, but I suspect might work, and if it does, it will make our lives much simpler.

The manual says a motion (G1/G2/G3) command MUST be preceded by a G0... but I am beginning to suspect that's not so.  So, enter the entire program through the "N" instruction above (NOT including the boring command).  Following the N command, enter:
     G1 X0 Y0 Z-20 V1   (this should move the spindle back 'home' and UP 20mm)
     G1 Z0                   ( should move the spindle back down to the zero position)

If that does NOT work, try this sequence, instead:
     G0 V1
     G1 X0 Y0 Z-20
     G1 Z0

Let us know how those minor tests go.  If the first G1 example worked, it allows things to work much more like 'modern' machines will under CamBam.

Yours,
Lloyd
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 16:10:58 pm by lloydsp » Logged

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lloydsp
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2018, 16:16:40 pm »

OH!  One oversight on that last set of examples!

You may have to MANUALLY set up the V-speeds in the control before attempting any program.  My inclination is to think that you might have to run a 'setup program' from floppy disk every time you power-up the machine, before attempting any programs of motion.  It appears that the machine loses all its 'operator settings' when powered-down.  This would be another great reason to convert that control to something more-modern! <grin>

Lloyd
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AsErBo
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2019, 21:36:15 pm »

Lloyd, Happy new year!

I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to you, and I am more sorry to report that I have yet to figure out how to work the editor on the controller...

However, I have finally managed to get hold of the correct software to "decode" the programs that the previous owner hd made, and a quick phone call last friday conformed that they have all been writen on said controller!

Disregarding a ton of leaky air lines everything seems to be in good working order with the machine, it provides plenty vacuum, and is scary quick in jogging mode :-)

Here are a couple of programs:

PIP.xxl

H DX=350 DY=200 DZ=20 -A C0 R100 /DEF
G0 X=73 Y=59 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=62 Y=89 I=117.89 J=92.48 V3
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=67 Y=122 I=117.35 J=97.49
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=90 Y=136.5 I=90.32 J=110.5
***********************************
G1 X=127 Y=141
G1 X=135 Y=149
G1 X=133 Y=140
G1 X=140 Y=145
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=137 Y=132 I=115.02 J=143.92
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=130 Y=110 I=116.78 J=126.32
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=80 Y=74 I=19.22 J=211.14
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=92 Y=57 I=37.72 J=31.42
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=85 Y=33 I=77.44 J=48.23
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=72 Y=60 I=95.39 J=54.63
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=69 Y=117 I=156.79 J=93.04
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=95 Y=130 I=88.78 J=109.94
***********************************
G0 X=109 Y=101 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=80 Y=90 I=81.42 J=129.97
***********************************
G1 X=70 Y=60 V3
G1 X=86 Y=89
G0 X=76 Y=92 V1 T11
G1 X=72 Y=60 V3
G1 X=70 Y=95
G0 X=60 Y=99 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=35 Y=81 I=30.45 J=113.68 V3
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=41 Y=73 I=38 J=77
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=60 Y=94 I=17.27 J=113.57
***********************************
G0 X=61 Y=88 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=56 Y=74 I=37.01 J=88.68 V3
***********************************
G0 X=65 Y=74 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=40 Y=49
G0 X=88 Y=60 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=81 Y=68 Z=2 V3
G1 X=75 Y=60
G0 X=74 Y=52 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=82 Y=62 V3
G1 X=92 Y=50
G0 X=92 Y=43 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=83 Y=54 V3
G1 X=75 Y=45
G0 X=79 Y=38 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=84 Y=45 V3
G1 X=89 Y=38
G0 X=85 Y=35 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=80 Y=71 V3
G0 X=87 Y=75 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=115 Y=74 I=99.74 J=39.2 V3
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=125 Y=65 I=112.56 J=61.23
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=92 Y=67 I=109.18 J=77.24
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=85 Y=75 I=133.48 J=110.35
***********************************
G0 X=101 Y=75 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=95 Y=73 V3
G1 X=98 Y=65
G0 X=107 Y=60 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=101 Y=71 V3
G1 X=111 Y=75 V3
G0 X=117 Y=72 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=108 Y=68 V3
G1 X=115 Y=59 V3
G0 X=121 Y=62 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=116 Y=67 V3
G1 X=120 Y=69 V3
G0 X=122 Y=65 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=89 Y=73 V3
G0 X=100 Y=82 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=127 Y=96 I=134.94 J=47.65 V3
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=142 Y=89 I=127.74 J=78.02
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=100 Y=81 I=114.67 J=118.21
***********************************
G1 X=142 Y=89
G0 X=135 Y=93 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=131 Y=88 Z=2 V3
G1 X=137 Y=85
G0 X=132 Y=82 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=122 Y=86 V3
G1 X=130 Y=95 V3
G0 X=123 Y=93 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=113 Y=85 V3
G1 X=123 Y=80 V3
G0 X=115 Y=79 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=107 Y=84 V3
G1 X=112 Y=88
G0 X=67 Y=68 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=45 Y=34 I=107.86 J=17.45
***********************************
G1 X=38 Y=53 V3
G0 X=56 Y=73 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=30 Y=55 I=7.11 J=115.84 V3
***********************************
G1 X=38 Y=54 Z=2 V3
G0 X=94 Y=168 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=95 Y=154 I=80.16 J=159.98 V3
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=73 Y=134 I=46.29 J=185.48
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=73 Y=151 I=130.37 J=142.5
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G3 X=94 Y=168 I=90.98 J=150.25
***********************************
G1 X=75 Y=138 Z=2 V3
G0 X=87 Y=145 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=78 Y=142 V3
G1 X=75 Y=154 V3
G0 X=79 Y=161 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=82 Y=149 V3
G1 X=92 Y=152
G0 X=95 Y=158 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=86 Y=155 Z=2 V3
G1 X=83 Y=166
G0 X=88 Y=168 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=91 Y=163 V3
G1 X=95 Y=163
G0 X=42 Y=162 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=45 Y=142 I=54.46 J=153.64
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=69 Y=132 I=73.57 J=176.77
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=56 Y=161 I=27.02 J=130.6
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=42 Y=162 I=48.06 J=148.28
***********************************
G1 X=66 Y=135
G0 X=65 Y=146 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=65 Y=137 V3
G1 X=56 Y=138
G0 X=48 Y=143 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=60 Y=142 V3
G1 X=61 Y=154
G0 X=55 Y=159 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=55 Y=148 V3
G1 X=44 Y=148
G0 X=43 Y=155 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=50 Y=155 V3
G1 X=50 Y=161
G0 X=65 Y=128 Z=2 V1 T11
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=36 Y=120 I=65.95 J=68.01 V3
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=31 Y=111 I=45.82 J=108.66
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=51 Y=109 I=42.24 J=122.39
***********************************
********* ARK GIV. RADIUS *********
G2 X=65 Y=128 I=23.04 J=144.26
***********************************
G1 X=34 Y=112
G0 X=38 Y=108 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=40 Y=115 V3
G1 X=35 Y=117
G0 X=39 Y=121 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=46 Y=121 V3
G1 X=44 Y=108
G0 X=51 Y=111 Z=2 V1 T11
G1 X=53 Y=121 V3
G1 X=46 Y=124 V3
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English is not my first language, so please assume that I always intend to be kind and polite, even if I manage to put my foot in my mouth!
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