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Made by CamBam => Members Machines => Topic started by: Bob La Londe on February 27, 2019, 15:32:23 pm



Title: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on February 27, 2019, 15:32:23 pm
Is anybody running a 24K ATC spindle?  An import? 

After getting used to using the quick change TTS tooling and the tool table on my Tormach I've really come to realize how much time I am wasting on the little Syil Speedmasters with their ER collet spindles.  I'm thinking something with an ISO20 taper tool holder.  Same power, but much faster tool changes. 




Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Garyhlucas on February 27, 2019, 17:53:08 pm
Bob,
Does your Tormach have the power drawbar too? Thirty years ago I got a Kurt power drawbar for a Bridgeport and the machinist was blown away by the time savings. On my homebuilt machine I use a right angle impact wrench. Just holding the tool in the spindle by hand and it gets the collet tight enough that I have never had a TTS holder pull out. Until last week when I took the impact wrench with me to a job site then couldn’t find it for a couple of days. Had 3 pullouts!

Working with the First Robotics club they have these tiny VEX Versaplanetary gear boxes that you can assemble to get 3 to 1 up to 1000 to 1 reduction and the final output shaft can put out up to 70 ft/lbs of torque!  I am thinking a thick race bearing on an eccentric pushing down a stack of belleville washers to release a tool. No air needed. I used to build a mechanism like this with one normally closed limit switch with lobes 180 degrees apart. Motion stopped when it hit the limit switch. The push button in parallel caused it to turn 180 degrees each time. One push releases the tool, next push grips the new tool.


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on February 27, 2019, 18:13:07 pm
I have the power draw bar on the Tormach.  However I am not asking about the Tormach.  Tool changes are fast on the Tormach, but the Tormach is primarily a supplemental machine.  

I'm asking about 24K (typically 400hz, but some are 800hz) spindles for my primary money making machines.  They currently have ER collet spindles.  I am asking about similar size and speed spindles with an ISO 20 quick change spindle nose to replace the ER spindles on those machines.  

That's the problem with providing context and background.  Anyway.  I am not asking about Tormach machines, spindles or tool holders.  

For similar application to your comments I added additional spring washers to my draw bar stack, modified the bar for enough clearnace, and tightened it until 120PSI is required for the tool to just barely release.  I have not experienced pull out issues unless running very bad chatter since.  The problem with TTS and the power draw bar is the reccomended settings in the Tormach installation manual are not adequate. 





Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: StefanR. on February 28, 2019, 07:41:18 am
Hi Bob,

Probably you're located in the USA, but this might be a hint in te right direction, a German dealer:
SK30
https://www.sorotec.de/shop/ISEL-iSA3600-HF-Spindle-Motor-with-aut--tool-changer.html
ISO20
https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Spindles/hf-spindle-aut-tool-change/mechatron-spindles-atc/Hochfrequenzspindeln-397/


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on February 28, 2019, 18:00:18 pm
Thanks Stefan.  Yes I am in the USA.  Those are the types of spindles I have been looking at except that I'll be looking for one with a fully straight body and cap. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 01, 2019, 17:00:35 pm
Well, I ordered one along with a few tool holders with ER16 and ER20 collets.  

The one I decided I liked is rated at 1.8Kw, and my existing spindle (for that machine) is rated at 1.5Kw.  Some might argue its not a good idea, but experience tells me as long as I don't ever load the spindle it won't matter.  Even if I do it will just trip the VFD safety.  I already know those Delta VFDs can take a lot.  I've put loads (by mistake) on them heavy enough to bog the motor, and I've learned a lot.  

Fingers crossed that its not an expensive mistake.  

So any Mach 3 users know how I can pass the tool number to the tool change macro so I can embed the G43 Hxxx in the tool change macro instead of inserting G43 Hxxx in the code with the post processor.  I wouldn't have an issue with using the post, but I have two other nearly identical machines that will still have fully manual tool change and touch off.  I don't want things going wonky because I "forgot" to set or change something when doing CAM.  





Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Garyhlucas on March 01, 2019, 19:19:00 pm
Bob,
What one did you buy?


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 04, 2019, 16:56:12 pm
I'll see what it says on the motor (if anything) when it arrives.  I bought it from a reseller called Powace whom I have purchased basic water cooled spindles from in the past when Solar.Jean didn't have what I wanted.  The Powace motor looks identical to the one pictured in the RATTM motors listings, but Powace has a lot more feedback and slightly higher feedback than Rattm.  

I think I have purchased closed loop super high torque steppers from Rattm before though.  


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 04, 2019, 22:09:34 pm
Hello

if in CB
T{$tool.index} M6 G43 H{$tool.index}

In mach3 you can use GetCurrentTool() to know the tool in use.

Function GetCurrentTool() As Integer
This function returns the currently active tool number.
Arguments:
None
Return Value:
Current tool number, 1-253.
Example:
‘ Tell the user which tool is active
Message “Current Tool is “ & GetCurrentTool() & “ = >
“ & GetToolDesc()
See also:
SetCurrentTool(), GetSelectedTool(), ToolLengthOffset(), GetToolParam(),
SetToolParam(), GetToolChangeStart(), GetToolDesc(), SetToolX(), SetToolZ()

(Mach3_V3.x_Macro_Prog_Ref.pdf page 17)

You can also get information about a tool with its number.

GetToolParam
Function GetToolParam(ToolNum As Integer, ParamNum As Integer)
This function allows any tool parameter, except the description text, for any tool to be
read. ToolNum is the number of the tool whose parameters are being set, and can be
from 1 to 255. ParamNum is a parameter number, defined as follows:
For Mach3Mill:
1 = Diameter
2 = Z Offset
3 = X Wear
4 = Z Wear
For Mach3Turn:
1 = Tip Type
2 = Tool Radius
3 = X Offset
4 = Z Offset
5 = X Wear
6 = Z Wear
7 = Turret Angle
Arguments:
ToolNum is an Integer tool number, and must be between 1 and 255.
Return Value:
Requested parameter value, as a Double
Example:
‘ Define some constants
DiameterParam = 1
ZoffsetParam = 2
XwearParam = 3
ZwearParam = 4
‘ Display tool #23 parameters
Diam = GetToolParam(23, DiameterParam)
Length = GetToolParam(23, ZoffsetParam)
Xwear = GetToolParam(23, XwearParam)
Zwear = GetToolParam(23, ZwearParam)
Desc = GetToolDesc(23)
Message “Tool 23: Diam=“ & Diam & “ Length=” & Length
_
& “ Xwear=” & Xwear & “ Zwear=” & Zwear & “ Desc=” &
Desc
See also:
SetToolParam(), GetToolDesc()

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 07, 2019, 17:49:25 pm
What a cute little tool holder. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 12, 2019, 20:43:45 pm
Spindle arrived yesterday.  Un-boxed it today. 

First thing I noticed is they threw in one complimentary ER tool holder. 

After splitting the inner foam block I found the spindle was labeled Rattm Motors.  I guess Powace and Rattm are the same company or buy their spindles from the same factory. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on March 12, 2019, 22:07:01 pm
Pretty!  Let us know how it works for you.

I do mostly DEEP routing in PVC, and it takes a lot of HP plus a lot of vacuum to keep the cuts clean.

I'm always looking for other solutions that cost less time and power.

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: kvom on March 13, 2019, 12:17:38 pm
What's the process for changing tools?


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 13, 2019, 15:38:25 pm
Lloyd, 

This one is 1.8Kw.  (2+hp)   I'll probably never push it harder than about 0.8Kw (1+hp) like I do my current spindles, but they do make spindles like this that are much more powerful. 


kvom,

You know I'm not sure yet.  It uses air to to disengage and reengage the pull claw on the pull stud, but in the limited documentation (very limited) there is a refference to a 24V signal for tool changes.  I won't know for sure until I put some air to it I guess.  I wuld note the limited specs show different air pressure ranges for everything.  Looks like I might need more than one air regulator. 




Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on March 13, 2019, 17:42:20 pm
I'm presently running a 5HP Columbo spindle.  It's a great motor.  The only thing I hate about it is the tool changes.

But, I can live with that, given I'd probably have to spend another $3K (or more!) for a more-modern 5HP unit with easier tool changes.

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 13, 2019, 19:44:40 pm
I was amazed at how much more efficient quick changes made me for some jobs.  The Hurco KMB1 is sort of quick change, but I never figured out how to make tool offsets work automatically for it until recently.  When I started using the Tormach with TTS I struggled at first, but its nutso fast now.  It has inspired me to reduce the time spent doing tool changes on other machines.  I group (where possible) short tool runs together at the beginning or end of jobs, and with quick tool changes it can save me ten minutes of just standing there in a single job.  I also no longer fear to many tool changes and use compromise tools instead of changing the tool.  I even use the same tool twice sometimes if its the fastest and most efficient to otherwise cut a job.  I think I subconsciously knew how much time I was wasting, but until I actually started saving that time on one machine it never really hit me before.   

Next I need to make a fixture for measuring the height of iso20 held tools. 



Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on March 13, 2019, 20:17:34 pm
The router I'm using has 'auto tool zeroing', via a tool-height detector.  It's pretty accurate, too, but not ideal, because it's designed to work only with router bits. I'm still working on some ideas on how to make it work with both router bits and Forstners (which have that damnable pilot 'tit').

There seems to be no way in it's software to change the XY position for length detection based upon cutter selection, so I've got to make some interchangeable faces for the detector -- one with a center hole that will clear the Forstners, and another with no hole for small flat-end cutters.  No time, though!  I spend all my time cutting wares!


Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 13, 2019, 21:21:40 pm
Hello

Quote
There seems to be no way in it's software to change the XY position for length detection based upon cutter selection, so I've got to make some interchangeable faces for the detector -- one with a center hole that will clear the Forstners, and another with no hole for small flat-end cutters.  No time, though!  I spend all my time cutting wares!

Yep ! .. same problem with T slot, big facing tool/flycutter or disk tools ... and even if you can offset the tool from the probe, you can't be sure that a tooth (flute) is at the right position above the probe ...

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 14, 2019, 15:31:04 pm
Premeasured tool heights with repeatable tool mounting cures that problem.  You touch off one time at the beginning of the job with any tool and press start.  

As long as the tool in the spindle is the one the machine thinks is in the spindle.  I measure my tools off the machine with a height gage. 




Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 16, 2019, 15:45:23 pm
Alrighty now. 

ITS HEAVY.  Quite a bit heavier than the spindle it will be replacing.  I'll weigh it later if I think of it. 

I've done a little research and know a bit more about the operation.  The signal wires are an activation circuit for an external device, like to engage a carousel position actuator.  I'm not sure I would use them that way, but I don't plan to use a tool rack or carousel any time soon with this.  I just want fast accurate tool changes using tool heights stored in the tool table. 

It uses air to release and disengage he tool holder.  I'll do a conversion on the spec in documentation I have, but one other user said he ran 80PSI.  There is a second air inlet marked return.  At first I thought it was just an air vent, but it appears to be a to quickly reengage the tool retention claw and disengage a spindle lock.  I'm still not clear how air is vented after a tool change.  I might need to use a 3 way valve. 

Their is an air seal.  I'm familiar with that.  Several of my other spindles have a spindle nose air seal.  I just use a cheap filter regulator on those set at 15PSI.  A solenoid valve opens when I power up the machine.  For those that don't know an air seal creates a slight positive pressure in the spindle nose to keep coolant and chips from getting in around any seals, bearings, or labyrinth.   Most have some clearance and there is a constant hiss of air flowing out. 

It has a thermister output which I'll probably just connect to a sounder or a flasher.  Even if it does get hot I want to stop it, not have it estop and crash. 

Of course its liquid cooled.  I already have liquid cooled spindles on all machines I currently plan to use one of these on so that is no big deal. 

Unlike my other spindles this does not have a plug for the 3 phase power.  It has a cord exiting the top of the motor.  That's fine with me.  Plugs from one motor to another can be different.  I can just install a barrier strip or use grease filled wire nuts.  I have been doing something like that on replacement spindles anyway.  I just leave the plug with a short length of cord on a motor when I pull it.  I currenty use silicone grease filled wire nuts. 

That's about it. 

I may not get back to this today.  I've got a couple molds that I tested yesterday and want to get ready to ship.  Mostly deburring and some secondary operations.  I also want to work on one of my boats and maybe do a little fishing today or tomorrow. 



Title: Video Part 1 of ??? - High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 16, 2019, 21:34:20 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_7TKhVqLCI&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on March 16, 2019, 21:57:06 pm
Fascinating, Bob!  I have no idea (yet) whether or not I could be OK with a smaller HP spindle than what I have, but  obviously saving time changing tools would be advantageous -- and even more-so to not have to re-zero each tool.

Keep us informed. 

Thanks,
Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 16, 2019, 22:14:54 pm
I wonder if that one air port might just be a case vent.  For any air that goes where it isn't supposed to. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bubba on March 16, 2019, 23:56:26 pm
I wonder if that one air port might just be a case vent.
*****************************
Not knowing anything about this particular spindle I think you may be right. Most if not all spindles have vents .. Nice looking setup.


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on March 17, 2019, 00:10:25 am
Perhaps, if it IS a vent, it's just to allow one to pipe any possible chips and metal dust (originating IN the spindle?) away from the spindle area and work area.

Just a thought.

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 17, 2019, 01:45:46 am
The Manual


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 17, 2019, 02:06:39 am
Hello

I found the spindle on E-Bay, and the price is very nice compared to the one sold by Sorotec !  :o

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/1-8KW-Automatic-Tool-Change-220V-ATC-Water-cooled-spindle-motor-ISO20-Engraving/264202169458?hash=item3d83ad2c72:g:U2wAAOSwjRpZUzbD

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 17, 2019, 02:15:43 am
Very light the manual !   you have to be diviner ! ;D

A good thing the "tool change signal" feedback to avoid crash if no air (or insufficient pressure)

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 17, 2019, 02:46:58 am
Ok... I think I got it.  There is a spring setup most likely on the draw bar, with a separate air cylinder that compresses the springs.  The air cylinder is probably dual acting.  Either with or without an internal return spring.  The other air port probably goes to the return side of the air cylinder to "make sure" it doesn't get stuck and sit there riding on the top of the draw bar generating heat through friction at 24000 rpm.  

After looking at the manual... I had to look up some of the pneumatic circuit symbols.  It looks like it uses a valve that puts pressure on one side when deenergized and vents the other.  Then when energized it puts pressure on the side that was previously vented and vents the first.  

So... The guy in that other video was probably right... sort of.  But he still needed to release the air between his valve and his spindle.  

Now Interestingly I think I have just such a valve that I took off a piece of equipment.  From reading it seems like it needs what is called a 2 way 5 port valve, but it sure sounds like it operates like a 3 way valve to me.  



Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 17, 2019, 03:06:42 am
Like this:


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 17, 2019, 03:12:40 am
Ok, it works like a double acting pneumatic/hydraulic cylinder.

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 17, 2019, 03:32:05 am
Yep.  I'm sure its a double acting pneumatic cylinder.  Don't know why I struggled with this.  I have virtually the same setup on top of the spindle on my Tormach mill.  

The valve by the way that I need is called a 2 position 5 port changeover valve.  And I have one.  

I also have some simple one way solenoid valves on the shelf for the other stuff.  What I don't have is three spare regulators for the three different air pressures it requires.  72-87 PSI for the tool changer, 29-36 PSI for the air seal, and 43-58PSI for the dust removal blast.  


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: kvom on March 17, 2019, 11:13:20 am
Does this spindle fit into the head casting of the mill, or are you going to fabricate a replacement mount?


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on March 17, 2019, 12:04:43 pm
Bob, that makes complete sense.  In this case "return air" means "return of the cylinder", not return of air.

Yes, what you're describing is usually called a 3-way valve.  But remember there are 2-position 3-way valves, and also 3-position (center-off) types.  There are even two and three-way 'stable' valves that will stay in whatever position they're sent to by a momentary actuation pulse.

I'd believe yours needs to be 3-way, 2-position, using constant actuation air signals.

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 17, 2019, 15:25:54 pm
Does this spindle fit into the head casting of the mill, or are you going to fabricate a replacement mount?

Should be an exact fit in this case.  The head was manufactured for and has an 80mm 24K spindle in it.  I've replaced the spindle before.  This spindle is also 80mm.  I have two other mills with similar heads.  One is exactly the same, but the third has a 62mm spindle.  When I had to replace that one it took a while to find a replacement.  I've seen a 61.95mm ATC spindle before that I could use in that one, but lately I have not been able to find it.  

Well, not quite an exact fit.  I either need to leave the top cover off the head or cut a hole in it as this spindle is quite a lot longer.  I may make a "tall" top cover for the head eventually.  


Title: VIDEO: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 17, 2019, 20:15:43 pm

Part 2

https://youtu.be/MUFz-p48FpA


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 18, 2019, 01:35:04 am
Hello

An interesting video about an ATC on a (big) BZT and dust shoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycIlpIX0kKM

This add some complications for woodworking because in addition you need to manage the dust shoes.

Bob, for metal working, how do you handle the cooling tube orientation to match with the tool length/size ? (if I well understand, you already have an ATC on another machine ?)

edit: what is the blue box on your video (I don't understand spoken English  :-[)

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 18, 2019, 14:05:38 pm
Hello

An interesting video about an ATC on a (big) BZT and dust shoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycIlpIX0kKM

This add some complications for woodworking because in addition you need to manage the dust shoes.

Bob, for metal working, how do you handle the cooling tube orientation to match with the tool length/size ? (if I well understand, you already have an ATC on another machine ?)

I had an ATC on a machine, but I was not happy with it.  I now have an ATC resting on the floor.  I run two locline nozzles for coolant, and if necessary I adjust them.  When I was running the ATC I would adjust for "most tools" so that the spray hit high on longer tools and just short on shorter tools. 
Quote

edit: what is the blue box on your video (I don't understand spoken English  :-[)

DIN rail mounted 12VDC power supply.  I picked up several of them at auction for a few dollars each some years ago.  Its a neat power supply.  100-240V AC input.  12VDC regulated 5 amps output. 
Quote

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 18, 2019, 17:54:42 pm
P.S.  I was going to edit in more subtitles, but to be honest it will all be covered in further videos in the series anyway.  I'm trying to keep them all short. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: skysurfer on March 20, 2019, 16:38:37 pm
The deeper I get the more I want a tool changer, but I have concluded that my ER20 spindle is dialed.
Yes that's a hair, 0.0118 (0.3mm) smallest drills I have.
Austin


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2019, 17:13:57 pm
I probably won't install a full on tool changer.  It would certainly be good for production, but there just isn't room on these machines.  Fast change and repeatable tool height still helps with production rate.  It helps a lot.  I can't just go to the store wile it runs, but instead of several minutes on each tool change I can swap tools in a few seconds and press start.  I think it will also dramatically reduce my likelihood of making mistakes when I am thinking about various other things. 

The other reason I probably won't install a full tool changer is that to be really useful I need around 20 preloaded tools.  Prefab tool changers dtend to 8 or 10 tools.  I just don't have the time or the knowledge at this time to build my own.  I'm thinking when I get a little further on the hybrid bridge mill build I may create a chain type tool changer that circles the machine on three sides.  I still have to think about that though.  I'm actually working on another (paid) project that might help with learning how to do that. 




Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Garyhlucas on March 20, 2019, 22:18:31 pm
Bob,
I think you run Mach 3 on a machine or 2.  I am having trouble with tool length compensation and tool changing.  I understand tool length compensation I've used it a lot in the past on other machines.  So I think I have it wrong in my Mach 3 post or in the Mach 3 M6 macros.  The code posted by CamBam looks like this:

G20 G90 G91.1 G64 G40 G49
( T1 : 0.07 )
T1 M6
G43 H1
G0 Z0.125
( Drill1 )
G17
M3 S1000

M6Start macro looks like this:
 
tool = GetSelectedTool()
  SetCurrentTool( tool )

M6End macro looks like this:

REM The default script here moves the tool back to m6start if any movement has occurred during the tool change..

x = GetToolChangeStart( 0 )
y = GetToolChangeStart( 1 )
z = GetToolChangeStart( 2 )
a = GetToolChangeStart( 3 )
b = GetToolChangeStart( 4 )
c = GetToolChangeStart( 5 )
if(IsSafeZ() = 1) Then
   SafeZ = GetSafeZ()
   if  SafeZ  > z then StraightTraverse x, y,SafeZ, a, b, c
      StraightFeed  x, y,  z  , a, b, c
else
Code"G00 X" & x & "Y" & y
end if

Mach 3 is set to do tool changes, and has a tool change height of 5 inches in Settings.  During code execution it stops the spindle but does not raise it 5 inches. The tool number changes and tool change indicator flashes.  I change the tool and press start and it does a very slow move like it is applying the tool offset.  However I just watched it do this, saw the Z DRO jump to the correct height above the part, then watched it push a drill in so far that the block of plastic extruded right up in the chuck!

Anyone have an idea of what I am doing wrong?  It seems like the M6Start macro ought to do a move to the tool change height passed to it from Mach 3 but I don't know how to code that.

Thanks,


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2019, 23:12:06 pm
You can embed specific code in your macros.  I like to use G53 so it moves to machine coordinates rather than to work offset coordinates, but you can also use G28 if you have set a G28 position.  Just be careful.  CamBam does not output both X&Y at the start of a MOP if one or both of them have not changed from end of a previous MOP.  To prevent that being a problem I store my current location in variables at the beginning of the tool change and go back to that location at the end of the tool change.  

Now here is a gotcha.  G53 and some other G-Codes use the last output F speed.  I added an F speed to my G53 lines in my macros to prevent that being an issue.  

G53 Z0 F(bignumber) should take the machine to the maximum Z height at max speed.  Well unless you are one of those weirdos who sets the bed of the machine as zero when you setup the machine.  LOL.  Just make it the first thing in your start tool change macros.  Well, maybe after coolant off, although I control coolant with my MOPs and styles.  Still a redundant spindle stop and coolant stop won't hurt. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: kvom on March 20, 2019, 23:21:32 pm
When I was running mach3 I always just jogged Z myself to a convenient height.

See what happens if you move the G43 before the M6


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2019, 23:38:46 pm
G43 applies the tool length offset.  It has nothing to do with movement of the machine.  Well not directly.  It changes the Z axis offset which changes the relative position of zero for your current work offset coordinates. 

T1 (Tool 1 for M6 command)
M6 (Execute tool change macros)
G43 (Apply tool length offset)
H1 (Specifies Tool 1 for G43 command)

I often use code that looks like this. 

T1 M6 G43 H1

For reference typically one uses the unloaded spindle nose (if practical) as tool zero with a length of zero.  All other tools are a positive length.  I said if practical as the locking collar on my Kwik 200 spindle on my Hurco mill might not be uniform enough for that.  Instead I use a tool holder with a very short stick out indexing pin in it as tool zero. 



Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Garyhlucas on March 20, 2019, 23:51:45 pm
Thanks for the replies guys.  I am going to have to test this some more.  I have limit switches that I can home to but never really bothered because I only implemented them to prevent a crash. My machine rapids at 300ipm which could seriously damage things if I hit an end stop.  The limits are magnetic reed switches so not terribly accurate for position but fine for hand tool changes.  However if home the machine that would allow me to move the spindle to a convenient place all the time for the tool change.  So I'll have to test that too. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: dh42 on March 21, 2019, 00:07:37 am
hello

Quote
However if home the machine that would allow me to move the spindle to a convenient place all the time for the tool change.  So I'll have to test that too.

I don't have an ATC but I also use Homing switches and machine coord (G53) to move my spindle in a more comfortable position for manual tool change.

Quote
For reference typically one uses the unloaded spindle nose (if practical) as tool zero with a length of zero.  All other tools are a positive length.  I said if practical as the locking collar on my Kwik 200 spindle on my Hurco mill might not be uniform enough for that.  Instead I use a tool holder with a very short stick out indexing pin in it as tool zero. 

Ok, it's what I thought ; we need a "probe tool" to set the initial 0 if working with tool length ... and that means that one of the tool slot is lost for a cutting tool  :-\ ... except if it is possible to change this probe tool manually ? so it is not needed that it stand on the tools stand/carousel.

++
David


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 21, 2019, 02:47:49 am
Usually the unloaded spindle nose is used as tools zero.


Title: Part 3 of ___. When the plan goes sideways.
Post by: Bob La Londe on September 22, 2019, 23:56:46 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Dyf6EZBLI

Its a long video, and everything is pretty much summed up in the photos near the end at about 32:19


Title: Re: Part 3 of ___. When the plan goes sideways.
Post by: Bob La Londe on September 23, 2019, 17:31:21 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Dyf6EZBLI

Its a long video, and everything is pretty much summed up in the photos near the end at about 32:19


Does anybody get any benefit from these videos?  Even crude vids like this slow down the work, and then they take a lot of time to edit together.  On top of it videos like this do nothing to promote my business, so Its not like I can justify the extra time on both ends for some nebulous brand recognition down the road either. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on September 23, 2019, 17:45:06 pm
Bob,
I very much appreciate the efforts you put into those.

I use them sometimes, and sometimes I don't.  But I always learn something new.

Your sharing your experiences has added a lot to this forum.  I hope you won't stop!

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 09, 2019, 23:48:06 pm
I got basic installation complete on one of theses ATC spindles last night, and just went through and fixed all the air leaks this afternoon.  Its going through the break-in and warm up cycle right now. 

Step 1 - 30 minutes at 25% of max rpm.  25 minutes in at 6000rpm and the spindle isn't even warm yet. I have a tool holder with a tool in the spindle, and I can't even feel a hint of vibration with my hand against the spindle.  I can hear it, but I can't feel any vibration.  That's as it should be. 

For those who might have been waiting on video #4 of the series, I do still intend to complete that.  I shot some video while installation this spindle, and the air system that goes with it, but I didn't take the time to setup for the best shots and I have not done any video editing.  I needed this machine up and running again more than I needed to make the video.  I have ordered another one of these spindles for the other similar machine and I will try to take the time to shoot better video when I install that spindle. 

Another few minutes and I can start step two of the break-in cycle.  15 minutes at 50% of max RPM. 

~~~~  ok 12,000 RPM.  Still zero hint of vibration.  Spindle still running cool.  Of course I have the spindle coolant hooked up.  I did hear it wind up when I cranked it up to 12000, but that's the only sign its running. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 09, 2019, 23:50:56 pm
I need to setup a vertical drag chain for all the new air lines.  They won't fit thru the existing flex conduits going to the head. I guess I could run another flex conduit for them 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 10, 2019, 00:03:01 am
I posted a very short video clip of testing the quick change function and air system here on this FB group - Makers & Builders.  

https://www.facebook.com/robert.lalonde.581/videos/2718209201537114/

The air blast you hear is the "deduster"  as it blasts air through the spindle while the draw bar is extended to blow out any chips and blow off the tool holder being inserted.  The actual tool change function is almost silent except for a very faint clunk and short hiss as the piston changes position and a small amount of air is vented through the exhaust ports on the valve.  I do have sintered metal mufflers on the exhaust ports.  

~~~~  My 15 minutes at 50% speed are up.  Time to crank it up to 24K finally.  

~~~~ At 24K I can feel a tiny amount of vibration in the spindle body finally.  


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 10, 2019, 00:10:25 am
I certainly appreciate the noise issue!  After having gotten new hearing aids, I'm even more aware of it.

In about three working days, I'll be receiving the barn metal to finish housing my 'vacuum shed'.  After that, ALL the high-noise items will be mounted a wall-away, and ten feet away from that wall, in another structure.

Noise am my enema... um enemy!

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 10, 2019, 00:27:24 am
Probably the only thing in my shop with noise safety issues is when I vent my air system at the end of the day to make sure the air dryer drains thoroughly. I turn off the shut off valve at the tank,  Crack the separator before the drier, and open a drain valve after the drier to bleed the distro lines.  Then I crack the bleeder valve on the bottom of the tank to blow out water in the tank.  That is the loudest it gets in my shop.  My compressor is actually not that loud when running, and the loudest spindles is the one on the Hurco.  I can hear a motor whine when its running, but metal cutting noise is louder. 

I've actually still got pretty good hearing.  Often I hear things or notice things nobody else around me hears.  Had a little scare with an ear infection a couple months ago.  Thought I was loosing hearing in my left ear all at once. 

Air blasts are freaking loud.  Actually I am looking at adding air blast on the Hurco semi permanently for steel cutting.  Might have to get my ear muffs out of the wood shop on the house if I do that. 



Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 10, 2019, 00:31:26 am
Ok, the spindle has been running through break-in and warm up for over an hour.  Its warm, but I can wrap my hand around it with no discomfort.  Its cooler than a moderately worked servo motor that's been running for a couple hours.  Seems good.  I think I'm going to make some parts with it tomorrow. 


Title: First Job With New - High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 11, 2019, 01:01:27 am
I'm finally running the first job with the new spindle.  I'm pretty darned chuffed. 

Pleased.  Happy.  Satisfied. 

I'm on the 4th tool of the job, and I really like it.  I haven't even started measuring the tool lengths and using the tool table yet, and its still so much more pleasing to use.  Pull the knob and the tool falls out in my hand.  Push the knob back in and it locks the tool in place.  Just that easy.  I had actually put the 4th (5th if you count the edge finder) tool in the machine before I picked up the collet closer wrenches off the front and grinned as I told myself, "I won't these here anymore." 

Now there is one odd thing.  It sounds better.  Quieter in the same cuts.  I don't mean just between the sound of a new spindle and an old worn out one.  I've swapped out a few spindles over the years.  I mean it sounds better the any plane collet nose spindle I have.  New or old. 

I am very happy that I already ordered another one of these spindles for the sister machine. 

I only have two complaints.  So far.

1.  I've had this spindle sitting here for several months and only just now got around to installing it.

2.  For some weird reason the wrench size to snug up the pull stud on the ISO 20 tool holders is neither a standard metric or standard imperial size.  I am using a Crescent ((tm) real Crescent brand even) to snug them down.  Maybe I've just been in two much of a hurry to go down the line and find the right wrench.  Doesn't matter.  They only ever need to be snugged down once. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 11, 2019, 01:33:39 am
Congratulations, Bob!  I still have a manual-change tool collet arrangement, and I discovered that the 'tool height gauge' on the machine varied +-0.050" per 'seek'.  So now, I must zero all tools to the work, instead of the gauge.  (FWIW, it's made a LOT of difference in the quality of the work...)

I envy you that easy change-out, and wish I could just 'program' my tools, and be done with it! But, no extra money means no extra hardware!

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 11, 2019, 01:53:46 am
I really like the little 2 inch high $60 tool height setters from Shars.  I've ruined a few of them crashing into them in a hurry on a machine thats cludgy with a few million lines of code in memory, but until you do that they are pretty repeatable.  None of them seem to zero at 2 inches (nominal height) with zero straight up.  Doesn't matter to me.  I just turn the dial face and then touch the stock with the spindle turning to get them dialed in just right.

https://www.shars.com/precision-magnetic-z-axis-setter-2-height-x-0-001

I have a 4" one from Edge Technologies, but I can only use it on the bigger mills.  I keep it on the Tormach most of the time.  

https://www.edgetechnologyproducts.com/pro-touch-off-gage/

I'd like one that is only 1" high, but haven't found one I liked yet.  I'd get an expensive Mitutoyo, but I don't care how accurate it is over its range.  I just care that I can zero to the same height consistently.  I adjust each one on the machine I use it on and leave it there until something happens to it.  

On the little CNC router I often don't have two inches of clearance so I use the ** reverse gage block (usually a 123 block) method.  Backlash is in the wrong direction that way, but I am doing rougher work in wood on it most of the time anyway.  

** Lay a gage block (123 block) on the work next to the tool.  Lower the tool until it is slightly below the level of the gage block.  Gently push the gage block against the tool while gently holding it down against the work.  Slowly raise the tool until the gage block just slides under it.  Some care is needed.  If you are ham handed you WILL chip a tool.  


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 11, 2019, 02:23:35 am
Yeah... all the above.

But I work with both small end mills, and Forstners with a 'tit'.  There's no great way to accommodate the tit on a Forstner bit AND the tip of a 0.093" endmill.  I wish there were.  I could MAKE a more-accurate depth-gauge than the one on here (which just uses a common microswitch, duh!).

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: kvom on October 11, 2019, 12:33:17 pm
I zero on my manual tool-change mill using a 1" gauge block.


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 11, 2019, 14:34:18 pm
'Gauging' isn't the problem, the tiplet on the Forstner is.

One possible solution is to make my gauge block pivot eccentrically on top of the height gauge, so I can swing the hole which accommodates the tip in or away from dead-center, as I desire.  That would work, so long as I remember to pivot it!

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 11, 2019, 20:09:05 pm
How about maybe a custom gauge that slips over the end of the forstner bit. Machined specifically for the application.


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 11, 2019, 20:33:17 pm
Bob, I'd need six different ones.  I use a variety of them, depending upon the customer's needs.

Each one is 'custom ground' to a precise diameter to admit the customer's paper tubes with proper interference in the plates.

That's a good idea, though.  Maybe I could come up with a 'universal fit' gauge block.

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 12, 2019, 15:29:21 pm
Or just make six of them.


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 13, 2019, 00:34:01 am
"Or just make six of them."

----
Until they all change in six to eight months.  EVERY time they order new paper tubes, the tube-winding companies come out with tubes a few thousandths (six to ten smaller or larger) different sizes.  They send me samples of each new lot of about 20K tubes.

Their effects don't have to change, because they are considerably smaller than the i.d.s of the tubes.  But the o.d. has to fit closely (not tight, but 'close') to the i.d. of the bore in the plate, in order to make a secure glue joint.

It means I grind new bits once a year, at least; usually more often.  In this case, I think I may have to come up with a 'more universal' device.  Maybe -- just a block of precise height, with a 'tit hole' to accommodate the tips of the Forstners, regardless of diameter, and of such a material (like hardened aluminum) that won't mar the spurs, but will still take incidental impact from the spurs without making big dents.

I wish it were easier, Bob.  I surely do.  But, I guess having a Darex machine improves my ability to serve their needs.

Lloyd


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: Bob La Londe on October 13, 2019, 01:59:20 am
How critical is bore depth of the holes?  If just within a hundredth or so a dry stable hardwood (hard by hardness not greenery type) might be good enough.  Hard rock maple. Iron wood.  Etc.  LOL.  Actually iron wood will wipe a saw faster than aluminum.  LOL. 


Title: Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
Post by: lloydsp on October 13, 2019, 11:59:22 am
Thanks, Bob!

It hadn't occurred to me to use wood.  I have some Korean mahagony-colored wood from the 1950s that is as dimensionally-stable as plastic.  Hmmm.....

Its grain is so 'closed' you cannot discern any grain except for the color-differences across the width (no 'feel' to the grain whatsoever), and it's resinous-enough that it is traditionally finished by 'boning', but the resins are not sticky, ever.

Lloyd